G+ LoME Archive
Jan 15, 2018 (17:12)
"variant" (cf. Gn.
"dialect". Looking at the discussions on discord we will need a word like this because all of us will be speaking our own dialects 😋
Jan 15, 2018 (18:14)
(1) We definitely need this word.
(2) The root is √VṚTṚ. Won't that yield
? Though estheticly, I like
(3) We already speak dialects (idiolects, to be precise). It doesn't hurt till we understand one another. It happens in some nomadic tribes like e.g. Khanty, where almost every larger family speaks its own dialect. But it hardens basic schooling, I'm afraid. And anyway, we need somehow approach to a common denominator, if we really want the language to be used.
(4) Today's discussion in the Discord was
frustrating. It definitely drives me into a deep depression.
Jan 15, 2018 (20:48)
What about an
 type formation (from some stem meaning "to change, alter")? What would the first vowel be with WIS? Sundomaic /i/ vs. /a/ (of
imply the former? Know this we must, yess...
The Finnish translation of "variant",
"else", by the way. Which in the very least reminds one that it's good that we know elements like
and their proper meaning these days..
 A derivation type mentioned in passing in
but not dealt with in
Jan 15, 2018 (20:58)
√VṚTṚ may have re-emerged in later Eldarin as the root √WIS “change”. With the suffix
(product of an action) we would get *wis-dā > *wizdā. Unfortunately, zd > st in Quenya, which would give
, conflicting with the word for “air”.
It's possible, though that this word was coined later from
“to change, alternate”, giving
However, I think some abstract noun formation from
would be better, perhaps
Jan 15, 2018 (21:45)
When I saw it first, I thought it was strengthening from
. Unfortunately, you are right and the stem re-emerges as √WIS.
is not bad, but
just sounds powerful.
Jan 15, 2018 (22:28)
fortunately -da isn't the only suffix meaning the result of an action, we have -ta and -na as well which gives further possibilities.
Jan 16, 2018 (00:12)
I like virda as well and would love to find a way to use it, but I can’t figure out how to get there from WIS.
Jan 16, 2018 (06:48)
1. Let's assume a LOS/LOR type pair (it may be going too far off course)
2. Let's turn to
Jan 16, 2018 (07:06)
The LOS/LOR point is what I would have imagined first.
, I feel like
is a single consonant there, not a h+y. But I may be wrong, of course.
Jan 16, 2018 (08:04)
WIR is already attested with two other meanings: weave and fresh. I don’t think adding a third is a good idea, since this is no evidence for it. As for ahya, we don’t know it’s root, so I think sticking with WIS is the right path. I still vote for viryamë or virmë for variation.
For dialect, though, we have other options. Maybe a diminutive of lambe: lambinque. Or carpalë = carpa + lé = speech manner.
Jan 16, 2018 (10:47)
I'm fine with *wirme just tried to substantiate my coinage 😊.
Karpale looks too much like a simple verbal noun to me, but karpalenge could work. Or karparaite (cf. S rhaed). Karpalaite "speech-colour" even. I think a bit of a poetic creativity could go a long way.
Jan 16, 2018 (12:02)
Thank you, your arguments are strong. I vote for
is too close to √WIR, in my humble and totally subjective opinion.
Jan 16, 2018 (12:37)
It's a pity Tolkien never (?) instructed us how these suffixes (like da/na/ta for 'product of an action') would work with derived verbs.
Jan 16, 2018 (12:39)
I find your suggestion intriguing. I have not considered that mode of derivation to date. If not with WIS nevertheless it may yet be very useful in the future.
Jan 17, 2018 (10:35)
thus, what will be our final decision for "variant"?
Jan 17, 2018 (11:16)
well. It would be neat to have a noun which employs a product-suffix da/ta/na (i.e. "a product of change = variant, variation") but I accept that doing that with the WIS root is not satisfactory . I think
is our safest bet.
 unless we stick to
and say it is a back-formation on analogy of
"deed". But I don't want to push it :)
Jan 17, 2018 (12:13)
couldn't think of
. That's great, but perhaps, goes too far. Nevertheless, let's try it. It just
Jan 17, 2018 (15:36)
I think the “product of a change” is a change, not a variant. That’s why a think an abstract formation is better. While I do like the way virda sounds, I think viryamë is probably a better fit.
Jan 17, 2018 (16:06)
ok, let it be so,
. As usually, I do not fight against strong arguments! ;-)