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ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ, Hjalmar Holm, Poetry, Ekin Gören, Tamas Ferencz, translations

Hjalmar Holm Mar 13, 2015 (15:26)

Narn hen o manen Pogodion agor garwegas rach, a cared a peded naid bainui dír-inced.

I have some trouble with this. I lack a word for "how", so I borrowed from Q (manen). I also lack a word for "adventure", so I triesd with paraphrasing it into " dangerous endeavour", but neither "danger" nor "endeavour" exists, so I tried with Sindarinizing Q raxë, (ns rach) but I now think I did it wrong, and I tried to reparaphrasing endeavour to "activity", using S gar- as a base ((ns garwegas), but it really doesn't make it. Lastly I paraphrased "unexpected" into "hard-to-guess", dír-inced, and that I am more pleased with. I think you recognize it as a sentence from very early in the Hobbit, but the translation is quite poor.

So, please, help me!

Tamas Ferencz Mar 13, 2015 (16:23)

In VQP we have an entry for Q 'adventure' which is derived (by Sami) from the verb verya- "dare"; so perhaps its S cognate bertha- could be the basis of a similar formation.

Tamas Ferencz Mar 13, 2015 (16:27)

Unexpected: perhaps simple *dirgen "difficult to see" could be enough?
 EDIT: on a second thought, probably not

Tamas Ferencz Mar 13, 2015 (16:49)

If we consider Q apacen "foresight", > *apacen- "foresee, expect", perhaps it could have a cognate *abgen(-) > *dir-abgen

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Mar 13, 2015 (21:37)

Given that CE/Old Sindarin *elen produces Sindarin êl [ http://is.gd/VH5f29 ], I would expect *mân instead of manen. However if Sindarin followed the evolution of Celtic to classical Welsh, this old inflectional form would be replaced by analytical-type constructions (e.g. interrogative pronoun + word for "manner/means/method" [≈ S gaud, haew?], or some instrumental preposition + interrogative pronoun).

*inga- was David Salo's reconstruction for "to guess" : http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm#ingon

Ekin Gören Mar 13, 2015 (21:39)

+Hjalmar Holm The word rach already exists in Sindarin, meaning "wain" or "wagon". There are a lot of homophones in Sindarin so why not. But I would use something like rachal* or ragath** to avoid homophone situation.

*From Tolkien's earlier raxalë
** I use g, then a vowel, and then th to reconstruct the "x".

Hjalmar Holm Mar 14, 2015 (01:02)

Hmm, berthad is not really enough I think. The Q -nde ending is not merely the gerund if I'm not mistaken. What more ways are there to make a suitible word from this verb? It wouldn't be wrong to make a verb for "adventuring" either.

Perhaps man vên, "in what way".

I was aware of the homophone of rach, but there are other forms that may be more correct glossed "wagon", so I went ahead anyway, but still I agree that it is pleasant to create new words with a minimum of intrinsic confusion.

inga- seems more like a S word, so I'll adapt Salo's word.

Hjalmar Holm Mar 16, 2015 (11:43)

If we are to make "adventure" out of bertha-, berthas is the best way I have found so far.


ragath "danger and ragathren "dangerous", like gwathren.

Tamas Ferencz Mar 16, 2015 (13:10)

If one looks at the etymology of E adventure: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=adventure&allowed_in_frame=0

There is a Gnomish verb with a very similar (and very wide) semantic range: tug- : http://eldamo.sourceforge.net/content/words/word-3796730879.html; however, in S this would be something like *tog- which already has a homophone.

Hjalmar Holm Mar 16, 2015 (20:58)

So, if one wants to mirror the E etymology, this would result in S an + tol-, something like anthol?

Tamas Ferencz Mar 16, 2015 (22:46)

+Hjalmar Holm I am not sure it's that simple. If you look at the Latin Etymon of the word, it has a future sense (gerundivum if I am not mistaken): "something that is about to come about ". I don't know if that can be mirrored in an Eldarin neologism

Hjalmar Holm Mar 17, 2015 (10:14)

+Tamas Ferencz  Yes, that sounds reasonable. And anthol could be more likely to be interpreted as "reason for coming" and over all hard to understand.