A question posted over at Elfdict got me thinking on our two attested words glossed as "more". We have the adjective amba and the adverb ambe and I am trying to figure out the correct/intended usage for these. Adjectives qualify nouns whereas adverbs qualify the verb (or rather the predicate?) so the two mores should somehow reflect it. The adverb is easy - it can be used in sentences like "I like chicken more than any other meat" Porokelle mára nin ambe lá/epe *ainima exa hráve., as "more" here qualifies "like". But how did Tolkien imagine amba the adjective? Is it in fact an alternative to the intensifying prefix am(a)-? Can we say Túro amba halla epe Marko "Túro is taller than Marko"? Or is this "more" restricted to more in quantity, as in "I want more bread" merin amba masta?
What do you think?
Paul Strack Aug 17, 2018 (14:50)
So nán amba
alassealassea cene tye “I am very much (or even more) happy to see you”I could see children stacking intensifiers for further emphasis: nán anamba alassea cene etye “I am even even more happy to see you”.
Tamas Ferencz Aug 17, 2018 (15:16)
Paul Strack Aug 17, 2018 (15:52)
James Coish Aug 17, 2018 (16:46)
Björn Fromén Aug 17, 2018 (17:32)
Tamas Ferencz Aug 17, 2018 (18:25)
Paul Strack Aug 18, 2018 (07:05)
It is my opinion that Quenya would string together adjectives where English might use an adverb, for example saying “a moderate joyful celebration” rather than “moderately joyful”. Based on this, I’d use adjectival amba in front of another adjective in a noun phrase rather than adverbial ambe, and limit the adverb primarily to modifying verbs.
Since we have no examples one way or another, this is just a guess on my part, however.
Remy Corbin Aug 18, 2018 (09:44)
By this analogy I would use adjectives before adjectives, other adverbs and verbs (when they answer the question 'how'), but adverbs before nouns and verbs (when they answer the other questions).
But it's only a speculation of course.
Tamas Ferencz Aug 18, 2018 (10:18)
Almost tempted to collect as many attestations of adverbs in sentences/phrases as possible to see if we can get any insight from that.
Paul Strack Aug 18, 2018 (13:31)
Lokyt L. Aug 20, 2018 (10:49)
Let's not forget, that amba isn't marked as an adjective, but as a noun and an adjective. I believe this clarifies the matter a bit: it's more about syntactic roles than about parts of speech as such.
I believe amba constitutes noun phrases, either alone = in positions usually occupied by nouns (a direct object: "I want more"; a subject: "there is more"; etc.), or as an attribute to a noun = in positions usually taken by adjectives ("I want more bread"; "there is more bread"; etc.).
Whereas ambe constitutes adverbials, adverbial phrases ("I want it more (than you)"; "he is more reliable (than you)"; etc.).
Tamas Ferencz Aug 20, 2018 (12:23)
Lokyt L. Aug 20, 2018 (12:34)
Lokyt L. Aug 20, 2018 (13:04)
Paul Strack Aug 21, 2018 (05:23)
I think if Quenya used adverbs to modify adjectives, it would be hard to determine their exact function. Consider these two English sentences:
“I saw quickly a dying man.”
“I saw a quickly dying man.”
But in Quenya: cennen lintave quelesta Atan.
With its freer word order and lack of indefinite article, I think Quenya would need to be more rigid about the grammatical function of adverbs. In particular, I think they should modify either the verb or the context of the entire sentence, whereas nouns and noun phrases should only be modified by adjectives. I think I would write:
cennen lintave quelesta Atan “I saw quickly a dying man”
cennan linta quelesta Atan “I saw a quick[ly] dying man”
Granted, this introduces a new ambiguity: is the man “quickly dying” or both “quick and dying”. Still, I think this could generally be deduced from context and where it couldn’t, it could be managed by shorter vs. longer pauses between the adjectives: linta-quelesta “quick-dying” (a near compound) vs. linta quelesta or even linta yo quelesta.
Granted, this is all pretty speculative, but I like that it makes Quenya grammar more distinct from English, and it seems be in the spirit of what Tolkien wrote about the limited use of adverbs in Quenya.
Tamas Ferencz Aug 21, 2018 (09:25)
This ambiguity arises in this particular case because Q does not have an indefinite article which would separate the noun phrase ("I saw quickly a dying man" "I saw a quickly dying man"); but as soon as we're talking about a specific man the ambiguity disappears (kennen lintie i quelila Atan/kennen i lintie quelila Atan). Word order can resolve the ambiguity: lintie kennen quelila A vs. kennen lintie quelila A, even with Acc+Infin kennen Atan quele lintie.
Lokyt L. Aug 21, 2018 (10:21)
Lokyt L. Aug 21, 2018 (10:51)
And as for what are adjectives modified by... As I said previously, It's a complex question that I can't attempt to answer with the knowledge I have.
(This being said, I however somehow arrived at a conclusion that the nature of the "not-much-use-for-adverbs" property of Quenya is rather that adjectives can be employed as adverbs in any position, no matter what they modify, if the context doesn't require an explicit adverb in order to make the construction comprehensible/unambiguous. Which indeed might be the case of "a quick, dying man" vs. "a quickly dying man".)
And by the way, if the default modifiers of adjectives would be other adjectives, than "a dying man" might also bring a question whether these participles / verbal adjectives do act like adjectives or like verbs in regard to the nature of their modifiers.
Paul Strack Aug 21, 2018 (21:18)
+Tamas Ferencz I agree that my choice of quelesta “dying” was a poor one. It is an attested adjective, but it is “Middle Quenya” from the period when the verbal noun prefix was -ste. This conflicts with later form of the verbal noun suffix as you pointed out, so I agree that quelila is a better choice.
My choice of lintave over lintie is, however, more deliberate. In particular, I don’t think that lintie is actually an adverb, but is rather an abstract noun (“swiftness, speed”) which may be used as an adverb to modify a verb.
I think the phrases on PE17/58-59 make this clear:
norne lintie “he ran quickly, (lit.) he ran [with] swiftness”
This is even clearer with:
norne lintieryanen “he ran as swiftly as he could, (lit.) he ran with his speed”
Since lintieryanen is in the instrumental case, it is definitely being used as a noun.
The fact that so many Quenya adverbs (lintie, márie, laurie) also function as abstract noun is one of the reasons why I think Quenya would not use “adverbs” to modify adjectives, only verbs. Allowing nouns to modify adjectives would be extremely counter-intuitive.
I chose the more “adverbial” lintave in my examples above because I think it is conceivable that it could be used to modify an adjective, even though I personally would prefer to use linta. However, I think the chances that lintie “swiftness, speed” could be used to directly modify an adjective is extremely low.
Tamas Ferencz Aug 22, 2018 (00:39)
Paul Strack Aug 22, 2018 (00:51)
James Coish Aug 22, 2018 (01:28)
Paul Strack Aug 22, 2018 (01:47)
Lokyt L. Aug 22, 2018 (09:13)
Paul Strack Aug 23, 2018 (01:47)
Lokyt L. Aug 23, 2018 (02:05)
Paul Strack Aug 23, 2018 (02:18)
Lokyt L. Aug 23, 2018 (02:45)
(And yes, we have these in Slavic too :) )
Lokyt L. Aug 23, 2018 (11:19)
You don't think amba is a declinable noun, or do you?
Paul Strack Aug 24, 2018 (03:32)
lauyuvalme ambanen “We will flourish with more”.