Post LMtCdQMSvAs

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Jan 19, 2016 (21:52)

Can we tell what would be the reflexive/passive verb equivalents ("to be ..ed") of envinyata- and *tancata- (PPQ)? Derived with –u–, perhaps, or would one simply use –xë with the transitive verbs (á la Old Norse)? Also, would their active perfect tense follow the example orta- > ortanië (PE17:77), as opposed to *(ta/a)tancátië ?

Александр Запрягаев Jan 20, 2016 (08:37)

Why such complications? Starting with the exact match to 'to be renewed', envinyanta ná, there are also much attested inceptives; tankata pa. t. tankante, tankanten 'I turned new again' matches the thought as well. There is the rya-pattern, tankarya/tankasse etc. Using makes sense as well.

I don't think there is any difference between ortanie and ortie when the suffix is causative ; as I see, the first is grammatically proper ( cannot be split), but it loses position for the second which is easier to use in speech. I wonder why enquantuva not _enquantauva_…

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Jan 20, 2016 (20:10)

+Александр Запрягаев
Thanks to your reply, I found tancarya, tancassë etc. in my 2nd/3rd-hand materials — however they maintain that these two forms were not glossed in PE17 (but maybe rya/ssë appear somewhere with another verb — the latter suffix obviously also resembles the Sindarin intransitive past tense). In any case it's good to know (since you appear to have seen the attestation) that tancata- can act as a reflexive verb.

Александр Запрягаев Jan 20, 2016 (20:22)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ +ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ +ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ +ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ
My final understanding of Tolkien's idea is like that (I'd show on ninkwe 'pale'): the causative ninquita, ninquitane 'to make white' vs. inceptive ninquita, ninquinte 'to become pale'. However, some most basic and common adjectives (and possibly nouns?) retain an older, CE formation with sja as ninquirya, ninquinse/ninquisse 'to become pale'.

I wonder: what is the case used with ola 'to become'? Tolkien's wording seem to point to a direct object, however, my intuition does not exclude instrumental; Uralic uses a separate translative case here.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 21, 2016 (13:32)

+Александр Запрягаев
for lack of evidence I think it's best to keep it as simple as possible, and retain the adjective or noun following ola- in an objective case.