Post 54S5sjuB4Z7

Damien Bador Jun 17, 2018 (17:07)

Psalm 3 in Parmaquesta

Third and last example — for the time being — of my ongoing translation of the Book of Psalms. This one may be of higher interest because Psalm 3 had never been translated in Quenya, as far as I know, unlike Ps. 1 & 2.

Like Ps. 2, I'll give a word-by-word back translation for better understanding. Again, any comment or remark is welcome, especially with regards to vocabular, grammar, etc.

1. Lindë. Laviro. Alacossë ló Apsalon, yondozya.
Song. David’s. In-flight from Abshalom his-son.

2. Á Yahwë, ta rimbai naistarinyar; rimbai, oryaltë anat ní;
O Yahve, so numerous my-oppressors; numerous, they-rise against me;

3. rimbai, quetiltë nin : “Ui reχtië nin Erussë!”. Putta.
numerous, they-say to-me: “No rescue for-him in-God!”. Stop.

4. Ananta lë, á Yahwë, þandanya, alcarinya; ortal cazinyá.
But-yet you, o Yahve, my-shield, my-glory; you-raise my-head.

5. Yamin ráwen Yahwenna; endaquetis nin aira orontizyallo. Putta.
I-shout aloud to-Yahve; he-answers to-me from-his- holy -mountain. Stop.

6. Inyë caita ar lorë; eχtuinun : ná, Yahwë tulconya.
I-myself, lie and sleep; I-awake: yes, Yahve {is} my-support.

7. Lá aistan lieon húmí sinai i pelir ní.
Don't I-dread {the} people’s thousands these who encircle me.

8. Álë orya, Yahwë, lë reχta ní, Erunya! An petil ilyai cottonyai ancan; rácil nelcí hrúaiwa!
Let-you rise, Yahve, you rescue me, my-God! For you-strike all my-enemies to-{the}-jaw; you-break teeth of-{the}-wicked!

9. Yahwëo reχtië! Lielyanna, mánalya! Putta.
Yahve’s rescue! To-your-people, your-blessing! Stop.
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Paul Strack Jun 17, 2018 (18:52)

The use of the noun putta “stop” for Hebrew “selah” is an interesting choice. I approve of it.

It's also interesting to see +Ицхак Пензев's suggestion of anat “against” reappear. I am adding it to Eldamo as a neologism, since it has been used and perhaps independently invented at least twice now:

I'm not clear on how you arrived at ráwen “aloud”. Maybe from the root ᴹ√RAW?

For “answer” I personally would use ᴺQ. hanquet- based on Q. hanquenta, since I think the etymology of endaquet- is too obscure and the word too tentative.

If eχtuinu is based on primitive etkuinu-, I personally think ᴺQ. eccuinu- is more likely, especially by comparison with ᴹQ. (ek)koiru- (an early assimilation instead of a transposition).

I added ᴺQ. eccuinu- “to awake” to my working draft of Eldamo 0.6.6 a week or two ago.

Generally, though I find this to be quite good Quenya, though I am not qualified to evaluate its effectiveness as a translation of the Psalm itself.

Damien Bador Jun 17, 2018 (20:48)

+Paul Strack Hello Paul,

Thank you for your comments. After our last email exchanges, I thought about writing you regarding the neologisms I had to invent for my translations. If you are interested, I built a detailed lexicon of my inventions, including the words they are derived from.

Indeed, "against" is an issue, because allative doesn't always convey the right meaning. So deriving anat from C.E. anak seems to me the best option.

Regarding ráwen “aloud”, lit. “roaringly” (which seems to be close to the Hebrew original), I derived it from n. rávë (ráwë) “roaring noise” and adj. rávëa (ráwëa) “roaring” (< RAW),
based on the triplet n. fárë, adj. fárëa and adv. faren. Of course, , or are more frequent adverbial endings, but I sought for something shorter than ráwelë. I admit that raurië, raumië could be valid alternatives (and maybe some more I didn't thought about).

For "answer", I prefer using the attested verb, even if it seems a tentative creation, rather than inventing a neologism. The prefix enda- seems an augmented version of en-, so it is not so questionable in my eye.

I believe eccuinu- and ehtuinu- should both be possible. Your example it a good one, but I would quote *et-kelē > ehtelë, *ektelu- > ehtelu- as support for mine. And in fact, PE 17, p. 166 shows Tolkien deriving both akkar and ahtar from AT-KAR.

Best regards,

Paul Strack Jun 17, 2018 (21:24)

+Damien Bador I would be interested in seeing your list of neologisms. There is a lot of work going on right now in various forums to collect sets of Eldarin neologisms, both here and in other forms. See, for example, +Tamas Ferencz's "1000 common words" post:

It would best, though, if you post them publicly, so that the community at large can look at them. There are a variety of approaches to crafting neologisms, and the only standard we have right now for evaluating the "quality" of neologisms is community consensus (which is not always possible).

Damien Bador Jun 18, 2018 (12:04)

+Paul Strack In such a case, I'll put my list in a GoogleDoc and give you access. It'll probably take me one or two days.

I will also add precisions regarding how I consider the relative strength of my ideas (e.g. developing a noun from an attested Quenya verb is quite strong and likely, developing it from a P.Q. root is less so, and inventing a word from scratch due to total dearth of cognates is the worst possible situation).

I'll try having a look at Tamas's wordlist as well.

Needless to say, in my opinion, even the most researched and likely neologism is instantly superseded by any Tolkien's jotting, even if we don't understand how he came up with it. The only exception I would make to this rule concern the very old Qenya words, when it is clear that a later decision or invention necessarily make them obsolete.

Evan A Jun 20, 2018 (20:20)

+Damien Bador Just wanted t say I love the rhythm and liveliness of your psalm translations. (Yitzak also had a good sense of vividness in a psalm I read over a year ago)
Looking forward to more.

Damien Bador Jun 21, 2018 (17:22)

+Paul Strack +Tamas Ferencz
As a first draft, here is the text version of the wordlist I've built: - Quenya Psalmist Wordlist

I'm now considering a more structured version based on a spreadsheet, but it'll take time before I can clean up the 1019 entries... By any means, feel free to take a look and comment on the structure of the spreadsheet: I don't want to spend hours in elaborating a spreadsheet that would not fit the community's needs:

Once completed, variants of attested words (such as unattested declensions) will be in columns J-K, while true neologisms will be in columns L-N, with their own variants in columns P-Q.

Paul Strack Jun 22, 2018 (04:42)

+Damien Bador you don’t need to do anything complicated. If you just put some kind of marker on the neologisms that should be enough. For example, I use “!” in Eldamo.

Paul Strack Jun 22, 2018 (04:45)

I just took another look at the spreadsheet and saw that you’ve already put the neologisms into a new column. That should be good enough.

Damien Bador Jun 22, 2018 (14:12)

+Paul Strack In fact, in the Word document, I put an arrow ( -> ) before all unattested forms, but this does not distinguish between mere declensions extrapolated from well-known sources and true neologisms (such as "bit" and "bridle", which both pop up in Ps. 32, as I recently noticed).

Damien Bador Jul 17, 2018 (14:46)

+Paul Strack The Google Sheet is now completed and updated up to Ps. 35 (the last one I fully translated). Feel free to comment on it.
And thanks for your neologisms on Eldamo: while I don't agree with all of them, they're quite useful to think about, and to implement systematic sound-changes.

Paul Strack Jul 17, 2018 (15:16)

+Damien Bador I have bookmarked it and will take a more thorough look when I have time. I’m glad you like the Eldamo neologisms, and would like to emphasize that they are a work in progress, so if you find one that seems particularly off or for which you have a better alternative, let me know.

Andre Polykanine Aug 09, 2018 (10:53)

I believe I missed something, what do you denote by the letter Chi (χ)? Thanks!

Damien Bador Aug 18, 2018 (11:26)

+Andre Polykanine As Tolkien does occasionally, I use χ for the letter “h” pronounced as the German Ach-laut, to differentiate it from the aspirated h. My goal is here to anticipate a future transcription in tengwar, which will be facilitated by this kind of diambiguation.

Another possible transcription would be ch, but Tolkien tends to keep this orthography for Sindarin.

Damien Bador Aug 30, 2018 (12:02)

Today, I've added the latest version of Ps. 3 to the Google Sheet (see link here): - Quenya Psalmist Wordlist

The version above will no longer be maintained.