G+ LoME Archive
Beregond, Anders Stenström
Apr 13, 2016 (21:29)
What vowel do you people put before the locatives in a word possessing no final vowel?
— what do you put? Ómataima of the stem, ómataima of the suffix, generalized 'E'? I'm doing a research on that — please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Tolkien
applied or described such a form after the DN 4 of 1930! (In QE etc. he repeats a totally ambiguous statement about 'monosyllabic consonantal through ómataima' giving a single example,
, which allows any of these possibilities. (Actually, I'd rather have an assimilation
kallo, kasse, kanna
, but what for
On an unrelated note, I'm presenting my studies on imperfect on a conference tomorrow. There will be a fellow contributor, who give a talk about the pros and cons of existing Quenya courses — must be fun!
Apr 13, 2016 (21:44)
Hey, Alexander, why don't you invite your fellow contributor to join us here on G+
Apr 13, 2016 (22:00)
We have quite a few with the allative, does that count? Elendilenna, Endorenna, númenórenna; (OK, the latter two can also be with a final -e); also
Beregond, Anders Stenström
Apr 13, 2016 (22:16)
Is the term
really used about the vowel of a suffix?
Apr 13, 2016 (22:18)
I've been interested in this for a while as well but my notes so far are haphazard. Some points to think about are
(Merin sentence, early 50s),
endoresse, nenesse, Taniqetildesse, Endorello
(VT49:24, late 60s), but the 1967
(VT43:16). The 30s also show
, plenty of genitive
, PE21:59+62, etc.
There are also the forms
That conference sounds interesting!
Apr 14, 2016 (00:22)
I also put an E in this case. This is quite important for me since my name (Menelion) needs such a vowel :)
Apr 14, 2016 (01:12)
Eldamo has some data table for noun cases:
The only major item I have to add to Matt's list is
assuming a stem form of
, which also points to E. The rule I use is E, with an exception where assimilation is possible and with
for 1st sg possessive.
Apr 14, 2016 (05:30)
Thanks! On a side note, the locative page linked has
; could that be the plural of sg.
? "Hills" and "Mount" are not identical, but I had wondered. Alternatively, there is
could be mentioned as well, though that's not locative. Do we have any reason to believe in 50s+ Quenya that the filler vowel changes for different cases, and its locative would be
? I didn't think so, but figured this was a good time to bring it up. ómataima, restoration of a lost vowel, generalized E, different vowels for the different cases ... Q(u)enya has shown a variety of different ways to select the vowel for consonantal declensions.
For possessives, VT49:17 is another data point to ponder. I am perhaps too quick to think "ah, that must be a different chronological snapshot and the paradigms aren't meant to coexist", but
makes me wonder. Perhaps a separate consonantal declension survived for stressed monosyllables, even in the late 60s (or was reintroduced)?
fits with VT49:17.
Apr 14, 2016 (07:02)
The Eldamo lists should be taken as preliminary because (a) Eldamo does not yet have all the available data and (b) the data in it has not been analyzed. I could easily have misinterpreted or miscopied some forms.
is a good example. I hadn't considered the possibility that it could be the plural of
. I still think a locative is more likely given the gloss, but I am not 100% sure.
Apr 14, 2016 (08:18)
I will try and persuade him to join!
Now, all of you persuade me to use assimilation or stem ómataima in basic monosyllables and E elsewhere. Usage in the plural us another problem: putting over I with N/R at the end is a double number marking…
Apr 14, 2016 (12:02)
can you clarify that last sentence of yours please?
Apr 14, 2016 (18:06)
, I know Eldamo is still preliminary, but it is already quite useful and a major accomplishment. I refer to it all the time.
The reason I didn't think
has a locative ending is because I assumed "in" is covered by
, a preposition which resembles
"above, on" in LVS14 (168). I think "as a rule" in that sentence could just be illustrating the habitual nuance of the aorist
as opposed to imperfect
in the previous one.
The relevant paragraph says "Note the use of the imperfect:
is used always when the 'dwelling' of any particular person or thing is still going on. The aorist would be used in such a sentence as this: 'In the summer I live in the hills as a rule, and come down to the plains in the winter.'
lairesse nihare to tarassi, yu unta hrívesse landannar
appears in the unglossed sentence
vári to vanimar
(VT27:35), though that may not be the same word.
Apr 15, 2016 (03:52)
You've convinced me. I will correct this in the next version of Eldamo. Looking at the sentence again I also realized that
is clearly a verb and not an adverb, so I will fix that as well.
Apr 15, 2016 (11:15)
and it also shows that the pronoun, even in its prefixed form, does not have to be repeated in the second part of the sentence (maybe this has been obvious but I for some reason assumed that as a prefix it is more closely wedded to the verb)
Apr 17, 2016 (15:22)
cf. also 127: "NDU,
down from on high. hence _unta,_ descend, as of sun or of a man from a mountain".
I also noticed you mark
as dative of *
. They seem rather nominative to me, I'd rather interpret those as somehow connected to "the final -m/n that sometimes appears at the end of object pronouns in pl. and belongs to them, not to the subject" at 94. As the separate (emphatic?) pronouns are basically objectives added to some stem-vowels, this
could be an additional plurality marker like that.
Apr 17, 2016 (17:04)
It seems likely you are right about
and I will make that correction as well. Hopefully when the article on pronouns is published, these things will become clearer.
Apr 17, 2016 (17:43)
I also hope my reconstructions are not far from truth :) Were there any news about PE23? I heard that Chris Gilson is preparing it and hoped to bring it to completion in first half 2016 — can't find where I got that from.
Apr 17, 2016 (17:56)
You have the same sources of news as me.
Apr 21, 2016 (21:32)
QE: NS lost this exact wording, but note in 'Notes for Qenya declensions', PE21:067: "Those that followed a stem enclitically, and tended to be agglutinated to it, were usually accompanied by the apparently objective form (sc. the one showing omataima) in case of basic noun".