Post GmuADVLCKuq

Александр Запрягаев Apr 13, 2016 (21:29)

What vowel do you people put before the locatives in a word possessing no final vowel? aran, aranVllo, kas, karVsse — what do you put? Ómataima of the stem, ómataima of the suffix, generalized 'E'? I'm doing a research on that — please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Tolkien never applied or described such a form after the DN 4 of 1930! (In QE etc. he repeats a totally ambiguous statement about 'monosyllabic consonantal through ómataima' giving a single example, nenesse, which allows any of these possibilities. (Actually, I'd rather have an assimilation kallo, kasse, kanna for kas, but what for aran?).

On an unrelated note, I'm presenting my studies on imperfect on a conference tomorrow. There will be a fellow contributor, who give a talk about the pros and cons of existing Quenya courses — must be fun!

Tamas Ferencz Apr 13, 2016 (21:44)

Hey, Alexander, why don't you invite your fellow contributor to join us here on G+

Tamas Ferencz Apr 13, 2016 (22:00)

We have quite a few with the allative, does that count? Elendilenna, Endorenna, númenórenna; (OK, the latter two can also be with a final -e); also earello

Beregond, Anders Stenström Apr 13, 2016 (22:16)

Is the term ómataima really used about the vowel of a suffix?

Matt Dinse Apr 13, 2016 (22:18)

I've been interested in this for a while as well but my notes so far are haphazard. Some points to think about are Ambarello (Merin sentence, early 50s), Endorenna, endoresse, nenesse, Taniqetildesse, Endorello (QVS, 125-6), Melcorello (VT49:24, late 60s), but the 1967 tal declension with talasse, talse (VT43:16). The 30s also show Mard-ello, plenty of genitive -en, PE21:59+62, etc.

There are also the forms Amanna, formenna and Rómesse, Rómello.

That conference sounds interesting!

Andre Polykanine Apr 14, 2016 (00:22)

I also put an E in this case. This is quite important for me since my name (Menelion) needs such a vowel :)

Paul Strack Apr 14, 2016 (01:12)

Eldamo has some data table for noun cases:

For example:

The only major item I have to add to Matt's list is Lóriendesse assuming a stem form of Lóriend-, which also points to E. The rule I use is E, with an exception where assimilation is possible and with -inya for 1st sg possessive.

Matt Dinse Apr 14, 2016 (05:30)

Thanks! On a side note, the locative page linked has tarassi; could that be the plural of sg. taras? "Hills" and "Mount" are not identical, but I had wondered. Alternatively, there is -sse as in carasse and minasse.

Ambartanen could be mentioned as well, though that's not locative. Do we have any reason to believe in 50s+ Quenya that the filler vowel changes for different cases, and its locative would be ambartesse? I didn't think so, but figured this was a good time to bring it up. ómataima, restoration of a lost vowel, generalized E, different vowels for the different cases ... Q(u)enya has shown a variety of different ways to select the vowel for consonantal declensions.

For possessives, VT49:17 is another data point to ponder. I am perhaps too quick to think "ah, that must be a different chronological snapshot and the paradigms aren't meant to coexist", but talasse makes me wonder. Perhaps a separate consonantal declension survived for stressed monosyllables, even in the late 60s (or was reintroduced)?

Mélamarimma vs. Ataremma fits with VT49:17.

Paul Strack Apr 14, 2016 (07:02)

The Eldamo lists should be taken as preliminary because (a) Eldamo does not yet have all the available data and (b) the data in it has not been analyzed. I could easily have misinterpreted or miscopied some forms.

tarassi is a good example. I hadn't considered the possibility that it could be the plural of taras. I still think a locative is more likely given the gloss, but I am not 100% sure.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 14, 2016 (08:18)

+Tamas Ferencz I will try and persuade him to join!

Now, all of you persuade me to use assimilation or stem ómataima in basic monosyllables and E elsewhere. Usage in the plural us another problem: putting over I with N/R at the end is a double number marking…

Tamas Ferencz Apr 14, 2016 (12:02)

+Александр Запрягаев
can you clarify that last sentence of yours please?

Matt Dinse Apr 14, 2016 (18:06)

+Paul Strack, I know Eldamo is still preliminary, but it is already quite useful and a major accomplishment. I refer to it all the time.

The reason I didn't think tarassi has a locative ending is because I assumed "in" is covered by to, a preposition which resembles to "above, on" in LVS14 (168). I think "as a rule" in that sentence could just be illustrating the habitual nuance of the aorist nihare as opposed to imperfect hára in the previous one.

The relevant paragraph says "Note the use of the imperfect: hára is used always when the 'dwelling' of any particular person or thing is still going on. The aorist would be used in such a sentence as this: 'In the summer I live in the hills as a rule, and come down to the plains in the winter.' lairesse nihare to tarassi, yu unta hrívesse landannar."

Similarly, to appears in the unglossed sentence  vári to vanimar (VT27:35), though that may not be the same word.

Paul Strack Apr 15, 2016 (03:52)

+Matt Dinse You've convinced me. I will correct this in the next version of Eldamo. Looking at the sentence again I also realized that unta is clearly a verb and not an adverb, so I will fix that as well.

Tamas Ferencz Apr 15, 2016 (11:15)

+Paul Strack and it also shows that the pronoun, even in its prefixed form, does not have to be repeated in the second part of the sentence (maybe this has been obvious but I for some reason assumed that as a prefix it is more closely wedded to the verb)

Александр Запрягаев Apr 17, 2016 (15:22)

+Matt Dinse +Paul Strack Concerning unta, cf. also 127: "NDU, unu-, undu,  down from on high. hence  _unta,_  descend, as of sun or of a man from a mountain".

I also noticed you mark intin as dative of *inti at . They seem rather nominative to me, I'd rather interpret those as somehow connected to "the final  -m/n that sometimes appears at the end of object pronouns in pl. and belongs to them, not to the subject" at 94. As the separate (emphatic?) pronouns are basically objectives added to some stem-vowels, this n could be an additional plurality marker like that.

Paul Strack Apr 17, 2016 (17:04)

+Александр Запрягаев It seems likely you are right about intin and I will make that correction as well. Hopefully when the article on pronouns is published, these things will become clearer.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 17, 2016 (17:43)

+Paul Strack I also hope my reconstructions are not far from truth :) Were there any news about PE23? I heard that Chris Gilson is preparing it and hoped to bring it to completion in first half 2016 — can't find where I got that from.

Paul Strack Apr 17, 2016 (17:56)

+Александр Запрягаев You have the same sources of news as me.

Александр Запрягаев Apr 21, 2016 (21:32)

QE: NS lost this exact wording, but note in 'Notes for Qenya declensions', PE21:067: "Those that followed a stem enclitically, and tended to be agglutinated to it, were usually accompanied by the apparently objective form (sc. the one showing omataima) in case of basic noun".