Post UX9tmHwosVu

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Jan 14, 2016 (22:17)

What is the latest word (in PE22, I take it?) on how the perfect tense is formed in the passive voice in Quenya? (Still similarly to Latin?) I'm looking into the possible readings of a certain Biblical Hebrew passage via translation attempt...

Александр Запрягаев Jan 15, 2016 (09:38)

I'm not so skilled in terminology used in Quenya; if you mean a form like 'this deed has been done by you', then if literally it is something like karma sina tyénen kárienwa (ná), with a past passive participle of augmentless perfect + nwa. Ni kárienwa almanen, Watson, almanen ar almonen.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 15, 2016 (10:26)

PE22/109 gives the following perfect forms for kar-:

Inf. akárie. Infl. akárier etc. Partc. passive kárienwa. Long perfect akarnelye etc. Past perfect karnelyane etc. Fut. perfect káriéva etc. Fut. perfect in past or conditional káriévane.

Does this help? Otherwise, as Aleksandr says, please clarify for us fírimor :)

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Jan 15, 2016 (16:06)

E.g. "it has been heard" = Lat. auditus est

ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ Jan 15, 2016 (19:19)

+Tamas Ferencz
What are the English equivalents of akarnelyë and karnelyanë ? Also, is lan "while" on p. 147 a noun and not a conjunction?

Tamas Ferencz Jan 16, 2016 (11:52)

+ܤܡܝ ܦܠܕܢܝܘܤ
if I interpret Tolkien's rather dense (well, to me, anyway) explanation on p104, karnelyane means 'I was having made' hence 'I had made'. Akarnelye, if I get it right, was originally akarnelya, as in ni akarnelya "I have made", but on analogy with the perfect ending -e, it became akarnelye.

You know what, I haven't even realized up till now that we have lan, apparently meaning "while" attested. The editors certainly seem to think it means that, and I agree. Very useful!

Tamas Ferencz Jan 20, 2016 (10:25)

+Александр Запрягаев
but let's also consider Tolkien's statement on PE22/107 that "the passive was expressed by inflexion in Q". He goes on contrasting the forms te ye matina 'it is eaten' with (a)matis 'it is eaten (one eats it)' the latter being the genuine verbal expression. So at this developmental stage at least, 'it has been heard' I think would rather have been expressed as ahlázies.

Actually I wonder how much of this rather neat impersonal paradigm survived in Tolkien's mind in the later stages when he switched to verbal pronominal suffixes and verbs were able to take nominal and objectival suffixes at the same time. Sure we have ora nin, óla nin and such impersonal constructions, but the impersonal as a way of saying things seems much more prevalent in the earlier stages. I miss it.

Александр Запрягаев Jan 20, 2016 (12:04)

+Tamas Ferencz ahlázie sen does not seem improbable.

Tamas Ferencz Jan 20, 2016 (12:33)

+Александр Запрягаев
perhaps - but it would be nice to see some confirmation in a source.